15. Isa Bela2019/12/19 21:49
[ответить]
>>14.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>13.Bella
>>>>12.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>It's easy if you take the ghazal #1.
>You're right! I can find this word in ghazal #1... But in Turkish translation of this ghazal I can't find this word. Why?
Prof. Nur Dogan translates "zulf" either as 'hair' (G. 1) or "long lock / zuluf" (G. 42). We cant come to conclusions solely because of his translation work -- there are incoerencies... His assumptions sometimes are very irritating. He is too naïve.
>>The most interesting thing: I'm absolutely sure that ghazal #42 is dedicated to a court page, not to a women.
Well, and I am absolutely sure that all his ghazals are for a male. And, you know, in G. 42 --- "one kind word from you will grant Avni life" --- it repeats the idea of the life-giving lips/the mouth of Jesus. That is, a male, like the other ghazals with this image.
Have you noticed that Mehmed uses the word "eflâk" in Ghazal 27? Check the meaning of this word eflâk, and let's reason together about that :))
>So I think that "zülüf" in fact means long lock, not short. And maybe that's why some people think that it's attributed to a woman. (Of course it's not! A man can also have long hair!)
>
The thing is that Mehmed II is a National symbol for Turks. Well, he was "God's shadow over the Earth", being a sultan and a religious authority (a bit like the Pope now a days, who rules the Church, and the City-State of Vatican), and all that thing about conquering Constantinople, and fulfilling a prophecy... He is untouchable. And, well, same-sex relationships were simply put-up with when it involved the aristocracy. It was not THAT overt, like some think. And, well, thinking about voivode Radu, such a relationship would have been very delicate, I think, because it envolved two heads of State...
>It's easy if you take the ghazal #1.
You're right! I can find this word in ghazal #1... But in Turkish translation of this ghazal I can't find this word. Why? I think it's not so easy... Look: in ghazal #42 we can find this word too but we also can find it in Turkish translation. The most interesting thing: I'm absolutely sure that ghazal #42 is dedicated to a court page, not to a women.
Court pages had long sidelocks
So I think that "zülüf" in fact means long lock, not short. And maybe that's why some people think that it's attributed to a woman. (Of course it's not! A man can also have long hair!)
>So maybe thats the explanation for specifying gender...
"Zülüf" in fact means long lock. That's my explanation!)))
>There are other things besides romantic escapades in relationships that make one upset.
This situation is quite possible. That's why I think that this ghazal is difficult for understanding. So many variants!
13. Bella2019/12/01 21:48
[ответить]
>>12.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>11.Isa Bela
>>>>10.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>Zülfün is a lovelock, or sidelock, the "Lock or tress of the hair of one's beloved". Why would it be gender-restrict?
>Maybe it's not gender-restricted. I really don't know because I didn't study this language.
It's easy if you take the ghazal #1. Where Nur Dogan comments that Mehmed probably wrote in praise of the Profet. "Zülfün" is in the opening verse. If Ott. Tur. had this word for "woman's lock of hair", Nur Dogan wouldn't mention Mohammed as the recipient of that ghazal.
>
>>The Sufi poets would always write in praise of the Ultimate Beloved, the Ideal Beauty, which was a male beauty...
>Not exactly. The Ideal Love in Sufi poetry is a love to a male. But this male can look like in very different ways. It can be a very young person who is look like a girl, or it can be a handsome warrior, or it can be a handsome wiseman.
Oh, I put it wrong. Not "male beauty", but a "beautiful male" :)))
>>What is the year of your Dictionary edition?
>It's quite old but good. The author (Nikolai Baskakov) is very well known expert in Turkish languages.
I asked because it would be hard for people from the (recent) past to aknowledge that great poets could even think of writing love poems for young men with fine locks of hair :)
So maybe thats the explanation for specifying gender...
>
>>And I don't see the idea that the beloved has somehow met previously with someone that might have messed up with the locks of hair. I agree with Gibbs
>But in Gibb's translation we also see an interesting dialog. The beloved becomes angry with Avni because Avni asks: "Why across thy cheek disordered float thy tresses?" And Avni don't like the answer of the beloved. Avni becomes sad and angry too.
But the hair is being blown by the wind, not necessarily dishevelled by a rival. And I dont feel Avni is upset right now. So much so that he thinks to himself "well, these poor fellows galloping across your face are wretched madmen because of your beauty". But later, when he asks "whereof this sharp glance?" (And here the other one is really annoyed...), he really gets cut off by the bad humoured beloved. But then --- just imagine your lover melting away compliments, and you just want to be quiet for a moment! And imagine he asking you "why are you upset?" exactly when you are growing upset because of this fussing....! Eeeek! :))))
Poor Avni
>If Avni don't have rivals than he shouldn't be so angry. If the beloved person don't have secrets, this beloved shouldn't hate questions.
>
>Don't you think so?
There are other things besides romantic escapades in relationships that make one upset. His beloved often shows signs of coldness, little patience towards the poet, and bad mood. Who can tolerate with unfailing patience the abuse of the loved one? (and somewhere Avni writes: "... weakness of the heart, the threat of enemies, the torment of the loved one... for all this God has made me") Its a disgrace! Bad, bad heart-stealer!!
12. (sergeevna2@yandex.ru) 2019/11/30 23:25
[ответить]
>>11.Isa Bela
>>>10.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>>9.Isa Bela
>Zülfün is a lovelock, or sidelock, the "Lock or tress of the hair of one's beloved". Why would it be gender-restrict?
Maybe it's not gender-restricted. I really don't know because I didn't study this language.
>The Sufi poets would always write in praise of the Ultimate Beloved, the Ideal Beauty, which was a male beauty...
Not exactly. The Ideal Love in Sufi poetry is a love to a male. But this male can look like in very different ways. It can be a very young person who is look like a girl, or it can be a handsome warrior, or it can be a handsome wiseman.
>What is the year of your Dictionary edition?
It's quite old but good. The author (Nikolai Baskakov) is very well known expert in Turkish languages.
>And I don't see the idea that the beloved has somehow met previously with someone that might have messed up with the locks of hair. I agree with Gibbs
But in Gibb's translation we also see an interesting dialog. The beloved becomes angry with Avni because Avni asks: "Why across thy cheek disordered float thy tresses?" And Avni don't like the answer of the beloved. Avni becomes sad and angry too.
If Avni don't have rivals than he shouldn't be so angry. If the beloved person don't have secrets, this beloved shouldn't hate questions.
Don't you think so?
11. Isa Bela2019/11/30 16:40
[ответить]
>>10.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>9.Isa Bela
>>"Zülfüna My dictionary says that this word in Turkish poetry means "the hair of the beloved woman". I can't check this information.
Zülfün is a lovelock, or sidelock, the "Lock or tress of the hair of one's beloved". Why would it be gender-restrict? The Sufi poets would always write in praise of the Ultimate Beloved, the Ideal Beauty, which was a male beauty... So why "hair of the beloved woman"?? What is the year of your Dictionary edition?
Check
>Any variant is possible and it's quite difficult to say what happened to Avni. Was he at a secret date in the garden at night? Or was that date at the daytime? Maybe nobody needed to keep it in secret...
"Saba" is the morning wind according to that glossary I posted above, and is in accordance with Gibb's translation. But it also means a special wind of love, I read in Ahmetova. So it could be either a night scene, or a real morning scene. And as I delve into Mehemd's poems, I understand that he uses the ghazal formulae all the time, so the hardware is a pattern; the software is all his, that is, the personal experiences are his alone, therefore authentic.
And I don't see the idea that the beloved has somehow met previously with someone that might have messed up with the locks of hair. I agree with Gibbs, and for me, the poet compares the face of the beloved to Rum-Eyli, and the disordered floating hair is like the galloping heroes across that Rumelia-like face, and how wretched and mad they are because of the beloved's face colour and scent. Adorable image!!
10. * (sergeevna2@yandex.ru) 2019/11/27 17:45
[ответить]
>>9.Isa Bela
>"Zülfüna < Zülfün" means "hair"
My dictionary says that this word in Turkish poetry means "the hair of the beloved woman". I can't check this information.
The fact is that the beloved person in the poem can be a young man, beautiful as a woman, or a young woman.
Any variant is possible and it's quite difficult to say what happened to Avni. Was he at a secret date in the garden at night? Or was that date at the daytime? Maybe nobody needed to keep it in secret...
9. Isa Bela2019/11/26 00:32
[ответить]
You mention the use of "tresses", used for women. But "Zülfüna < Zülfün" means "hair" (check the opening line in Ott.). And if you replace "braids" with "hair" or "locks", the metric is just not good. *Maybe* that's why Gibb used "tresses" instead.
And the talking about "blood" and the consequent displaying of "ensigns" (blood and flags are too war-ish, aren't they?) gives me the impression that the "she" was actually a "he".
8. Bella2019/11/25 15:38
[ответить]
>>7.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>5.Isa Bela
>>>>4.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>
>The book is available not only in Google cache. It's available at the website too.
>
>
Wow, thank you! The whole file is priceless!
The one I found last week through Google is a different one. Maybe it could interest you.
"History of the Ottoman Literature"
Incidently, have you ever found the word "êflak" in Mehmed's Ghazals? I did notice it twice only. It means "heavens", "skies".
It also means "Wallachia" in Ott. Turkish.
>I tried, it is under maintenance today. I will check in later.
>Thank you again!
A think, it's OK now))
5. Isa Bela2019/11/23 22:29
[ответить]
>>4.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>3.Bella
>>>>2.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>Hiii!
>>Been Very Busy with other academic & personal stuff.... But since May I have the Nur Dogan's book with Mehmed's diwan!
>
>Oh! Sorry)) I don't know why... but I thought that you were talking about Nur Dogan's book))
>
I have it! Got it from Amazon, coming aaall the way from Turkey :)
>I have Gibb's book too.
>
>Souls are fluttered when the morning breezes through thy tresses stray;
>
Ah, thank you so very much for your trouble & kindness! I tried to find it early today, but Google TRanslator gave me an incorrect first verse. Now I could find the online resource!!
It is a lovely ghazal.
>As for the book itself, you still can get it if you search by Google "Souls are fluttered when the morning breezes through thy tresses stray" (the phrase must be in quotation marks), find the webpage and click "saved copy"
I tried, it is under maintenance today. I will check in later.
Thank you again!
4. (sergeevna2@yandex.ru) 2019/11/23 22:22
[ответить]
>>3.Bella
>>>2.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>>1.Isa Bela
>Hiii!
>Been Very Busy with other academic & personal stuff.... But since May I have the Nur Dogan's book with Mehmed's diwan!
Oh! Sorry)) I don't know why... but I thought that you were talking about Nur Dogan's book))
I have Gibb's book too.
>As for my request, I only need the ghazal you posted here (In Google Translator, " souls tremble if in the morning breeze...)
This ghazal is at the page 46.
Here is Gibb's translation.
Souls are fluttered when the morning breezes through thy tresses stray;
Waving cypresses are wildered when thy motions they survey.
Since with witchcraft thou hast whetted keen the lancet of thy glance,
All my veins are bleeding inward through my longing and dismay.
"Why across thy cheek disordered float thy tresses?" asked I her.
"It is Rum-Eyli; there high-starred heroes gallop," did she say.
Thought I, though I spake not: "In thy quarter, through thy tint and scent,
Wretched and head-giddy, wand'ring, those who hope not for stray."
"Whence the anger in thy glances, O sweet love?" I said; then she:
"Silence! surely if I shed blood, I the ensigns should display."
Even as thou sighest, 'Avni, shower thine eyes tears fast as rain,
Like as follow hard the thunder-roll the floods in dread array.
As for the book itself, you still can get it if you search by Google "Souls are fluttered when the morning breezes through thy tresses stray" (the phrase must be in quotation marks), find the webpage and click "saved copy"
3. Bella2019/11/23 19:08
[ответить]
>>2.Лыжина Светлана Сергеевна
>>>1.Isa Bela
>>Hello!
>Hello, nice to see you again here!
>
>>Would that be a nuisance if I ask you if you can post the original, maybe a picture if you have the book?
>I have the book, but it's quite difficult to take photos of all the pages you need. There're more than 600 pages in the book, and the English part is about 200 pages.
>I do not have special equipment for making copies, but I can make photos of some pages which are the most important for you.
Hiii!
Been Very Busy with other academic & personal stuff.... But since May I have the Nur Dogan's book with Mehmed's diwan!
As for my request, I only need the ghazal you posted here (In Google Translator, " souls tremble if in the morning breeze...)
God Forbid if I'd ask you to take 200 pictures LOL!!
2. * (sergeevna2@yandex.ru) 2019/11/23 18:48
[ответить]
>>1.Isa Bela
>Hello!
Hello, nice to see you again here!
>Would that be a nuisance if I ask you if you can post the original, maybe a picture if you have the book?
I have the book, but it's quite difficult to take photos of all the pages you need. There're more than 600 pages in the book, and the English part is about 200 pages.
I do not have special equipment for making copies, but I can make photos of some pages which are the most important for you.
1. Isa Bela2019/11/23 17:48
[ответить]
Hello!
How you doing?
You know, I am trying to get the English translation of this ghazal, but I can't find it on the online resource for Gibb.
Would that be a nuisance if I ask you if you can post the original, maybe a picture if you have the book?
Thank you so much!