# Mark Kotlarsky.Interview With Lev Gunin

Лев Гунин

Гунин Лев

Mark Kotlarsky.Interview With Lev Gunin

Origin: http://samlib.ru/g/gunin_l_m/biokte.shtml

Создан: 01/04/2002, изменен: 17/02/2009, 28k

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LEV GUNIN'S BIOGRAPHIES

English Translation Mark KOTLARSKY (Interview, published in 1994, newspaper "BPEMЯ" ("Time", in Russian), Tel-Aviv Displayed After Newspaper Lev GUNIN's BIOGRAPHIES PART SEVEN  MARK KOTLARSKYINTERVIEW WITH Lev GUNIN: Lev GUNIN's BIOGRAPHY or A PERMANENT DISSENT Газета "ВРЕМЯ" от 1.8. [августа] 1994, Тель-Авив "VRIEMIA" Newspaper (Tel-Aviv), 1.8. [August] 1994, page 8 By Mark Kotlarsky Interview with Lev GUNIN  Gunin's remark: This interview was a vicious and perfectly planned provocation of the Israeli government, which goal was to discredutate me personally - as well as a nu,ber of my essays, which disturbed Israeli ruling class. (See comments after the text of the interview)  I think that the main Lev GUNIN's slogan is "permanent opposition, permanent dissent, permanent struggle...Here is Lev GUNIN Lev with his mother and 2 his daughters at Montreal's Musee des boux art, at exibition, were a sculpter, created by his daughter Marta, was presented.

Газета "ВРЕМЯ" от 1.8. [августа] 1994

"VRIEMIA" Newspaper (Tel-Aviv), 1.8. [August] 1994, page 8

By Mark Kotlarsky

Interview with Lev GUNIN

Translation from Russian Original

See Lev GUNIN's commentary at the end of the interview's text:

BIOGRAPHY OF LEV GUNIN, PERMANENT DISSIDENT

... AT ONE TIME, BEING YET A YOUNG PERSON, ALEXEI MAXIMOVICH GORKY HAS PUBLISHED A COLLECTION OF HIS VERSES, WHICH HE HAS THEN DESTROYED. BUT THERE WAS A LINE, WHICH SOMEHOW SURVIVED IN MEMORY OF GRATEFUL DESCENDANTS: " I came to this world to be someone who disagree... " I THINK, THAT THIS LINE COULD BE THE VITAL MOTTO FOR LEV GUNIN. THAT IS: ETERNAL OPPOSITION, ETERNAL DISSENT, ETERNAL STRUGGLE...

BE ACQUAINTED: LEV GUNIN.

Human rights activist, dissident, and person, who was struggling for preservation of the Jewish culture, he cooperated with the People's-Labour UNION [PLU, or NTS: HTC in Russian abbreviation] and took part in the First Congress of HTC in St.-Petersburg. He regularly delivered information about human rights violations in USSR to newspapers "Washington Post" and "Chicago Tribune", and to USA embassy...

Lev Gunin is a musician, publicist and interpreter, whose works were published in various foreign editions and in "sam'izdat", who worked in archives of Bobruisk and Minsk to rescue at least some crops of the Jewish history. He was systematically persecuted by authorities, exposed to threats and batteries. And during "perestroika" Lev was one of those, who actively participated in creation of the society of Jewish culture in Bobruisk.

- And here, - tells Lev, - I has for the first time confronted with the activity of Sochnut. If we wanted to keep the Jewish heritage, they, - in my opinion, - did all they could to destroy it.

- Lev, - I tried to soften his sharp tone, - maybe be, you are not absolutely right... - I am ready to give the proofs, - says Lev, - and, by the way, I am not going to erect ungrounded accusations on everyone in Sochnut: I speak only about those, who worked at us, in Bobruisk. For instance, I know for sure, that all that colossal help, which streamed to Bobruisk, did not reach practically any member of the Jewish community. Videos, copy making machines, printers, various literature - all that through the Sochnut's activists' assistance disappeared in a "black hole". There are the witnesses, capable to confirm my statements. I have information, that, for example, a rich gift has arrived from Sweden and Finland from Christian organizations for local Jews with thousand of complete sets, where audio cassettes and textbooks for Hebrew study, video cassettes about Israel, and other items were included... And what? A part of these sets has vanished in non-existence, and the part was sold, though all of them were intended for free-of-charge delivery. GUNIN IN POLAND

- During my first stay in Poland, - tells Gunin, - I have met with Check Novachek - hunter after Nazis. The facts, which he gave me, coordinated with my own researches, but at the same time seemed unbelievable. The facts are that, under available for me information, a huge number of small Nazi criminals escaped after the Second World War from Germany. So here, Novachek has informed me, that, unfortunately, the part of them under counterfeit Jewish passports has got in Israel. To the point, when I have visited native-born Israelis, what, you think, I have seen by them? Nazi symbolic on walls. And by some Hitler's "Mein Kampf" laid on a table in Hebrew translation. And these people tried even to explain that among a certain part of youth the philosophy of Nazism is rather popular. I do not know, whether they were the descendants of those escaped Nazis, but you must agree it is strange to see such things in the Jewish house.

... Let's return again to "Polish episodes" in Gunin's biography. After his attempts to act against Sochnut activists, his life in Bobruisk became simply unbearable. And then Gunins decided: we have to go! The family Gunin through Poland has left for Israel. Troubles have started already in Warsaw, when Gunin has tried to meet his Polish friends.

- A real scandal erupted between a Sochnut man, and me - asserts Lev. - I wanted to leave with my friends, but was elementary deprived the freedom of movement. But - you see, - I had the transit visa for the period of 3 days! And consequently I should not be removed from Poland by Sochnut workers.

- Forgive, Lev, - I object him, - but I think, that you are not absolutely right. I went under the transit visa through Czechoslovakia and Hungary, too. Transit visa during this period was merely a formality, necessary for Polish or Hungarians should not object to the movement of the Jews through their territory.

- May be, - agrees Lev, - but the Sochnut man has warned me, that I shall remember him a long time. As the time shown, this threat wasn't ungrounded.

- Lev, if sincerely, did you want to go to Israel?

- I wanted to ask a refuge in Poland, and then to go to Germany or to France. ON WAR AS ON WAR

Lev wins my sympathy to him by his honesty, irreconcilablity, and kindness. He has wonderful children and pleasant wife. But by all his existence he has declared war to Israel, and consequently behaves as on war.

Of course, I can be mistaken. But the paradox of this whole story is that in many aspects Lev is right in many things, which has noticed his vigilant dissident eye.

However, when feelings are too sensitive, doesn't every suspicion seems reality, doesn't even an insignificant detail is displayed as a part of a "system"?

- I continue to ensure, - speaks Lev - that I am hunted by them as a wild animal. Everything is fulfilling according to what the Sochnut man promised in Warsaw. All, what I touch, meets resistance. Three years I could not get on musical courses, though I was certified and passed over examinations, as it spoken, under the maximum category. Three years I am deprived normal medical service, and the result of that has become a heart attack, which I recently survived. During one period of time in the morning, in the afternoon and in the evening the telephone constantly called in my apartment, and somebody in broken Russian language warned, that it is better for me to finish my anti-Israeli activity. More then that, the same voice has warned, that Shabak is after me, and it is better to sit quietly and to suspend any move. There were any kinds of strange things, which happened to me: for an example, an elderly man approached me in Bituah Leumi and presented himself as an agent of Shabak...

-Lev, - I interrupt him, - which agent of Shabak? - Do you think, about what you speak?!

- I do not know, I do not know; in any case, this person has told me that it was entrusted to him to take care of me. And, it is necessary for me to keep trusteeship and, if I shall calm down, he will take care about the destiny of my manuscripts, which have been disappeared on our way to Israel. Then he has left the telephone number and told, that I must ask a man whose name is Avraham. The manuscript was really vanished, but the most significant, is that it was my research about Nazis, who found refuge in Israel. Then I have got in one more rather strange situation, when the police have accused me of plunder of the weapon. Besides any of my letters does not for some reason reaches its destination.

- Lev, did you continued to be occupied in Israel with the human rights activity?

- Certainly! And a manuscript was already born here, which I have named "THE PALESTINIAN GULAG". This manuscript consists totally of 500 typewritten pages, and here the terrible facts are assembled. THE MANUSCRIPTS ARE NOT BURNING?

There is an opinion that the manuscripts are not burning.

Lev Gunin is not quite sure about it, therefore urgently translates his book into English language.

The facts assembled by him seem to be true and correspond to the appropriate sources; some data are received in result of a survey, which was carried out by Gunin himself. I must admit, the title of his work scratched my ears a little bit.

But here are the facts.

When Menachem Begin was going to give back Sinai, (he) has invented the concept of "administrative arrest", - tells Lev. Probably, to suffocate faster those, who acted against the government's policy. Since then four thousand people were arrested under the rules of  "administrative arrest". These data was relieved by the Minister of police Moshe Shachal, who gave a speech in Raanana. But they do not include figures of the last two years: I can not understand why the present government keeps silence about them for unknown reasons. I managed to find out, that for today in prisons under administrative arrest more than 400 people (50 of which - new immigrants) are kept. Basically, they are the representatives of movements "Kach" and "Kachane Hi". They have been thrown into prisons without court or trial.

- Lev, are there any data on total results of 1993 and 94 years?

- You can't find them in any place, as they were forbidden because of the censorship's reasons. It is known only, that in 1993 in comparison with 1992 the rate of deaths on manufacture among employees has grown on 18 percents. If we speak about manufacture, there is a curious data, concerning new repatriates- females. So here, annually 4 thousands women, our compatriots [Russian-speaking], were sexually insulted on their working places by the owners and other crooks. Only in one centre for help to victims, affected by sexual violence, few thousands new repatriates were given advice. Not better businesses are going in the army, which was always a subject of pride for Israelis. According to data revealed by Knesset deputy Naomi Khazan a significant growth of suicides in ZAHAL [Israeli army] among the soldier - new immigrants is observed: this parameter is several times higher, than among native-born Israelis. Here is an example, which I have noted myself. There is a caravan settlement for new immigrants near Petach-Tikva. Only there 3 its inhabitants - soldiers have finished their life by suicide. I even do not speak about tens known for me cases, when the completely ill people were taken away to the army.

- By all, you worked after your book not more worse then the state controller. Then you should have a chapter, related to the payment rates.

- Yes, there is such a chapter. In Zionist Forum and in party RAZ they have informed me, that every third ole (new immigrant), working in industry, was refusing the minimum wage during two years.

- Medicine...

- In various periods up to 30 percents of our [Russian-speaking] immigrants had no membership in medical insurance societies and had no opportunity to pay for medical services. The women have the most draft hardship: among 40 thousand illegal aborts in the last year the superiority belongs certainly to our compatriots. But when a number of female organizations have addressed to government with the request to organize a special campaign of free-of-charge delivery of condoms, a categorical refusal was received. You, by the way, know of existence of "Yellow House" in Jerusalem?

- No, never heard.

- By the way, this house is known to many Israelis. It was called "yellow", because was painted by a yellow paint. And generally it is the hospital "Gea", where under an excuse of psychiatric treatment hundreds of regime's opponents are held. They are mainly religious dissidents.

- Lev, do you feel yourself as a Jew?

- Yes, unconditionally.

- But you are going to leave?

- Yes, we practically sit on suitcases.

- Did you have tired of struggle?

- I am tired to leave.

- Where you are going to go?

- Meanwhile it is a secret. But, believe me - I have a pity to this land. She deserves best destiny.

The manuscripts are not burning.

But human lives are burning.

And who, tell me, is guilty?

Mark Kotlarsky Translated from Russian original by Leonid Kovalev (Moscow), and submitted to Lev Gunin via e-mail

I, the under named, am fluent in Russian and English languages, and solemnly declare that I did the translation according to standards in Russia

Leonid Kovalev

COMMENTS TO Mr.MARK KOTLARSKY`s INTERVIEW WITH LEV GUNIN PUBLISHED IN "VREMIA" NEWSPAPER

(1.8 1994, Tel-Aviv)

By L. Gunin

Based on a letter, submitted by Lev GUNIN in 1994, in protest, to newspaper's editorial stuff with adjustments of later facts

Writing that interview, Mr. Kotlarsky de-masked himself as the informer and provocateur. That interview was a sophisticated and time-consuming provocation, which he personally has no reasons to create.

That provocation was aimed against me personally as against the author of articles, which criticized Israel for human rights violations, but also against my certain works: "Unknown Israel", "State of Deception", "Why Israel is Against the Victory Day?", "Israel-Made Apartheid" ("Jewish Apartheid?" in "Courier" newspaper's version), "Gever Israeli", ""The GULAG of Palestine", and others. Mr. Kotlarsky was just a hired executive, who did that dirty job. Behind him were other people - from both right and left wing Israeli political parties, - who wanted to convert attention from my works to my personality and show me as such a personality that no reader would read my works any more.

Mr. Kotlarsky distorted not just my words, but also my style, my language. After him, the language I used was primitive, contradictive in itself, and stupid. To compare how he presented my language - and how my language really sounded one can listen to my interviews, given to radio "Bobruisk" in 1990, to radio "Stunde" in 1992, and to internet-radio "Russian Alliance" in 1998. It is also possible to listen to the tapes of the immigration hearings, which took place in Montreal, in 1994-95, and to my own Internet-radio "Radio X".

I am never using the manner, phrases, and attitudes, which - Mark Kotlarsky claimed - are mine! My real language is completely different!

First of all, I never jump over from one topic to another one without completing the first one. On contrary, sometimes I am using tautology, but this is another story.

I am never using any vulgar, rude slang - as Mr. Kotlarsky posed as mine in his article.

My language is not primitive as if I was 5 years old - as Mr. Kotlarsky claimed.

He also quoted me as if I could not compose even one phrase grammatically correct, when in reality I was employed as corrector by 3 Russian newspapers, including newspaper, where I worked together with Mr. Kotlarsky. Publishing houses, which published my essays and books, might confirm that they had much less work to correct my works then other authors'.

The interview is written in a humiliating manner, making fun of me, as if I was a born clown.

Mark Kotlarsky was my friend and colleague during as minimum 2 years.  Before that interview he never revealed himself as a provocateur. We discussed a lot of things in our conversations. When he came for interviewing me we agreed that he must show me the complete text of his version before it could go to the newspaper, otherwise he should not publish it. He gave me his version - and it was OK. I told him to remove only one-two lines, because I was against them. When I got the newspaper, I found that the text of that interview was completely different from what I saw before. So, he cheated me. He also reflected not the topics we discussed, but some confidential things I told him much before, or things, which we checked together working for the same newspaper.

For example, we used to study the wave of sexual assaults of Russian women at their work places together, and we found some official statistic information regarding that problem. In his interview he was lying that I myself conducted that study, and based it on my own survey. Then, we never discussed my proof of existence of the fascist ideology in Israel. He just took my work "Why Israel is Against the Victory Day?" which I gave him to read, claiming that we discussed that topic when he was interviewing me. But that was not true. He distorted the sense of my work, which was basically in the same time published in Israel, and lied about my arguments that fascism exists in Israel. Then, we both - Mark Kotlarsky, and me - received information about so called "Yellow House" in Jerusalem. We received this information from rabbi Meshulam, the initiator of upraise in a small town Yehud (near Tel-Aviv). Rabbi Meshulam told that there is a "Yellow House" in Jerusalem, known as a mental hospital, but used by authorities to treat political dissidents. That issue has no connection with the "Gea" hospital in Petach-Tikva, as Mr. Kotlarsky claimed I told. I never named "Gea" hospital in connection with that "Yellow House" in Jerusalem...

He used deception, distortions, and lie to show me as a liar and defamer. He distorted all figures of the statistic information, which I gave in my 3 works: "Unknown Israel", "The GULAG of Palestine", and "State of Deception", to show me as someone, whom people just can not trust. In one part Mr. Kotlarsky himself or the newspaper's editor removed the end of one paragraph and the beginning of the next, so that it looked like I contradicted myself. The 1-st paragraph evaluated the number of people, placed under so-called "administrative arrest", and the 2-nd one - the number of Russian-speaking people injured or killed on their working places. So, naturally, these numbers and facts were different. But because of the extracted lines only a careful reader could see the distortion. And so on...

Composing his interview Mark Kotlarsky claimed that I declared a non-compromised war against the state of Israel. In reality he new that the only thing I wanted from the state of Israel is to leave me alone, giving me permission to go abroad - and not to affect my claim for a refugee status in a country, where I should go. After Mark Kotlarsky's interview with me, in which he was presenting me as a pathological enemy of the state of Israel and told that I declared a war against the state, how could I stay in Israel any more?

In other paragraphs he, without changing the sense of my responses, distorted my language, and by recomposing my words made them double mining or even changed the sense of some phrases, and also invented some half-deceptive details.

He stylized this interview in a humiliating manner, presenting me as a stupid, stubborn, abusive, and even dangerous person. He tried to deride me, but it was a vicious, mean laugh. He merely wanted to gain promotion from the government. By describing me as a public enemy and pathological troublemaker, for whom an anti-social activity is like a sport (which was not true), he consciously put my security under a risk. He also claimed that I am planning to escape form Israel, and it was a pure lie. He knew from me that I was taken to Israel by force. He also knew that I tried to restore my Belorusian citizenship for returning to my native country. So, he knew that I would like to quit Israel. But in the time of the interview I still did not know where to go, even did not know at all if we could leave: because I still was not given the permission. In that time people who left for Canada were called "traitors", and the public opinion was manipulated against them. Even if it was true, he should avoid writing about my "plans" if he was not so mean. But it was also a lie! The Israeli government could inspire him to invent this statement for signaling the Canadian or another immigration that I am a trouble-maker.

Because we were friends, I entrusted Mr. Kotlarski a number of confidential things long before that interview. He violated that confidentiality and his promises not to tell other people what I told him, describing some of confidential things to the public.

In the same time Mr. Kotlarsky's article-interview is a proof that coming to Canada I did not invent any lie in my refugee claim, but claimed what I already claimed and about what complained in Israel.

A clever reader can see that all himself. But I would like to point that it was a sophisticated and time-consuming provocation, so, it points not only to Mark Kotlarsky himself... Lev GuninNovember, 1998

Copyright ╘ Lev Gunin & Co

Montreal 1998

Copyright ╘ Lev Gunin & Co Montreal 1998


Copyright ╘ Lev Gunin

Montreal 1998

.........

Copyright ╘ Lev Gunin & Co

Montreal 1998

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© Гунин Лев. Mark Kotlarsky.Interview With Lev Gunin

Origin: http://samlib.ru/g/gunin_l_m/biokte.shtml

Создан: 01/04/2002, изменен: 17/02/2009, 28k

Эссе: Мемуары

Series: (Biographies)